Forum::The Projects::Predictor And censorship

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Guest

2007-05-21 09:04:28

U agree also.
As P@H has removed us, so shall we remove Predictor.

Would not bring a single tear to my eye.

mo.v: BAM!ID: 25128; Joined: 2007-05-01; Posts: 280; Credits: 0; World-rank: 0

2007-05-21 10:36:09

I've sent an email to boinc@scripps.edu.

Dear Professor Brooks and Mr Braun

I see that as a reward for service to Predictor, the project is now attributing the workunits and credits from Scripps computers to a small number of highly-valued contributors.

There are people I also need to thank and reward. For example the many guys who, when I've made appalling technical gaffes on the forums, have put things right most discreetly. They could have been very cruel to me but instead they were exceptionally kind.

I would like to offer the workunits and credits from my two computers to some of these guys, two at a time. I think I should do it very discreetly in case they have wives or girlfriends who might object. Like an anonymous Valentine card or gift from a secret admirer. I know it isn't February, but I'd like to get started anyway.

How can I do this? I can't find any instructions on the boinc website. Would I need to hack into these guys' accounts, or is there an easier way?

Thanking you in advance,

Yours sincerely,

Mo Vilar

DoctorNow: Volunteer tester; BAM!ID: 261; Joined: 2006-05-12; Posts: 353; Credits: 2,504,120,993; World-rank: 1,181

2007-05-21 16:04:37

Nice mail, mo.

If you get answer for it you maybe get luckier than me - not a single letter I got from my mails.

Well, like Saenger already said, I would prefer it too, when Predictor would be banned from the stats sites, and I speak for the most of my team members in this case, too, which have the same opinion.

What about first making a poll on the frontpage if that should be done?

What's about it, Willy?

BOINC@Heidelberg & BOINC Confederation-member

My BOINCstats/[url=http://signature.statseb.fr/sig-335.png]My badges

Terve2: BAM!ID: 7439; Joined: 2006-10-01; Posts: 42; Credits: 174,239; World-rank: 525,363

2007-05-21 16:21:39

I've sent an email to boinc@scripps.edu.

mo.v.,

you have gone too much, I suppose. You say a gift from you. But you can think what actually you have paid for it ? Electric bill ? You are asking like "admins, pay your time so that I satisfy." What's up ? You were far calm than many of else.

I actually don't know exact issue of grid units. If it were giving away, it might be problemsome. But if it were "to run p@h and to keep security up to date", it would be much professional issue. What I could see at this moment is rather at latter case. end of discussion on this. be calm, be cool, be smart. I know you can understand unless your are purely against the admin.

mo.v: BAM!ID: 25128; Joined: 2007-05-01; Posts: 280; Credits: 0; World-rank: 0

2007-05-21 17:22:57

Hi Terve

If I receive a reply I think it will say that DLB can do it because he has access to the server software. But I can't do it because I'm not a project administrator, so I can't manipulate members' accounts.

I may not receive a reply at all because DLB must be very busy indeed looking after the P@H servers and also more than Predictor 1200 computers, many of which can run 4 simultaneous workunits.

Terve2: BAM!ID: 7439; Joined: 2006-10-01; Posts: 42; Credits: 174,239; World-rank: 525,363

2007-05-21 22:00:48

I'm not a project administrator, so I can't manipulate members' accounts.

I am not a M$ CEO, I have only a few money. So I have no way to buy dual Opteron dual core blade servers. I can't run so many processes one time to get highest position on BOINC....

And so what ? I have my capacity and I can do something some amount for somebody. I maybe able to do something what M$ CEOs cannot do. I can walk on the street without pies flying to my face ?

Yo have choice. You can choose from what you can do. It's your freedom. But I don't think this freedom includes "forcing somebody to do for you like as servants".

mo.v: BAM!ID: 25128; Joined: 2007-05-01; Posts: 280; Credits: 0; World-rank: 0

2007-05-21 23:10:07

When we were posting on Predictor, I looked at the details of your computer and it seemed very nice with lots of memory. I expect you're using it to do extremely useful work for boinc projects. I can't get a lot of credits either. My old computer is partly broken but it can still crunch workunits. For me the scientific value of the workunits is much more important than the credits. But some people count their credits carefully, so the credits system must be fair.

I certainly hope you get no pies in your face because you are very honest and polite.

Kokomiko: BAM!ID: 16496; Joined: 2007-01-06; Posts: 8; Credits: 85,894,207; World-rank: 13,030

2007-05-21 23:16:12

[...]I would prefer it too, when Predictor would be banned from the stats sites, and I speak for the most of my team members in this case, too, which have the same opinion.

Yes, that's the right way. This project isn't worth to crunch.

The user have to shut her mouth, go elsewhere, they called the mob, they shall censored, banned, accounts are deleted include their early earned credits and the admin hacked accounts and let computer run on strangers accounts.

Credits are a goodwill value. Deleting ones credits and give credits away to others is a demolition of the whole credit system, a attack against the whole BOINC-System.

Let's make a poll, so that all can decide, if Predictor shall be here or not.

Saenger: Tester - Translator; BAM!ID: 5; Joined: 2006-01-10; Posts: 1735; Credits: 231,679,312; World-rank: 6,764

2007-05-22 04:34:52

The Predictor admin has manipulated member accounts in two ways:

- he randomly deleted accounts of members
- he randomly granted big amounts of credit to unconnected users

Both is bad, both is absolutely against the spirit of the BOINC credit system, both makes the credit system since the "invention" of these measures worthless. Until Mr. Braun wreaked havoc with the Project, the credits seem to have been fine, so I would prefer a solution with the restoration of the status quo ante, that's a short time after the real hacker account got his unfair credits deleted.

Grüße vom Sänger

ThEfT: BAM!ID: 355; Joined: 2006-05-14; Posts: 124; Credits: 3,050,080; World-rank: 117,097

2007-05-22 04:54:30
last modified: 2007-05-22 05:05:38

Thanks for that great mail mo. Perhaps we should check in such a functionality into the official BOINC code

We should now really start doing something against instead of only discussing. It might be a proper way to remove any links to Dictator er Predictor related sites from community and stats pages.

Or just rename it to Dictator@home

The Google Bomb already worked before

ThEfT
BOINC@Heidelberg -Admin
http://www.petitiononline.com/phletter/petition.html
http://www.boinc-team.de

mo.v: BAM!ID: 25128; Joined: 2007-05-01; Posts: 280; Credits: 0; World-rank: 0

2007-05-22 11:25:08
last modified: 2007-05-22 11:31:52

What I would like to know, and what my email asked albeit facetiously, is how it's possible for one boinc project cruncher to attribute a computer under their own control, together with its workunit results and associated credits, to the account of a second registered user.

1) Is this possible using only information publicly available on the second user's server web pages (whether from the project or from public stats sites)?

2) Or can it only be done using privileged information available on the project's server/s?

3) Does the required procedure vary according to whether the second user is aware or unaware of the 'transfer' of the computer to his/her account?

4) Could a computer I did not attach to my project and have never seen suddenly appear, together with its workunits and credits, on my project and stats site server web pages? Are there any security implications?

5) Are there any instructions available on boinc or project websites telling us how to do this?

I am no expert on project registration procedures. This is why I have two separate registrations on two different projects. Perhaps someone who understands the procedures better than me could help answer my questions, which I hope are relevant.

Jord: BAM!ID: 18; Joined: 2006-01-31; Posts: 84; Credits: 22,376,744; World-rank: 32,394

2007-05-22 20:39:00
last modified: 2007-05-22 20:43:39

A reply to all wondering.

Credits gotten by people running results from the cluster are added to the person, his team and his RAC and the team's RAC. And as can be seen from the credits given out, it's not only the testers than get part of the clusters. It's older users as well. They get (part of) the cluster appointed by their account key that is available on the server.

Credits that the testers get on the test project are added to that person's own Predictor account only. Not to his team.
----------------

I think that if my opinion about a project differs from yours that I don't need to be attacked over it. Yet that has been happening over the past couple of days. My personal email address had over 1000 sent to my specific email address SPAM messages and slightly over 100 email messages with a virus attached.

Luckily that my ISP has good anti-SPAM servers and a very good anti-virus server set before the email server. So all virusses got caught and off late, since my ISP updated their AS software, the SPAM is down to 2 per 24 hours. Besides, I read my email through webmail. Whomever it was, you won't catch me with this.
-----------------

BOINCStats being Neutral Ground where everyone can leave behind their opinion about things, within reason and without bad language, I'm 100% sure that a poll asking for Predictor to not be shown on the lists here will be dumped.

You've all left your opinion here as it hurts you personally, as you have been deleted. So does everyone need to be deleted then, just because you were acting like a brad-pack, a bunch of juveniles who didn't understand the word 'no'?
--------------------------------------------
The next part of the post here is something I wrote back to someone in a PM somewhere. I have edited out the name of the person that I know now did the large picture attacks.

The person was telling me that in his eyes my moderate position on things about were changing, since I was still not about to leave Predictor.

A while back an incident happened at Seti that made whole teams retract their people, emails going out to all sides of the world, telling everyone to leave that project. A couple of months later everyone was back, but for a couple of them. Demands for apology were made, apologies were never given and in the end it just all blew over.

I sat squat in the middle of that whole row as I had just been made moderator over there. I didn't budge and only later, when the status quo had returned and the focus of people was set elsewhere, did I leave the project and moderation over other things.

So in my opinion, someone has to do it.
Now as to the deletion of everything and all on BFL, it was a choice you made when you joined that team. I still can't say it was the best thing that David could've done, but on the other hand I understand why he did it. All of the prior BFL teams had been deleted, so eventually there comes a time that the project admins say it's enough. They made it clear they didn't want that team on their project, as what else do you think it means when an administrator deletes the team?

(name) posting the big pictures didn't help either, others taking over when he got IP banned just destabilised the position of your team even further. Is it a bad thing that David deleted the accounts of everyone on the team? Yep, I think it is. But I don't blame him over it. He did try banning accounts and people just made new ones. He blocked accounts and people just made new ones. He deleted the team 7 times, people just made new ones, even with his name in it. That's harassment. So perhaps asking inside the team why this bullying/harassment/trying to destroy the forums was done is a good place to start.

So the question is yours to ask.
I have my own opinion about things. Especially when I sit in the middle of them happening. I'm sorry that they differ from your opinion. But it is my opinion. And only I can change it. Not you!

Jord.

Cori: BAM!ID: 2; Joined: 2006-01-09; Posts: 1351; Credits: 69,052,230; World-rank: 15,124

2007-05-22 21:34:53
last modified: 2007-05-22 21:36:37

...You've all left your opinion here as it hurts you personally, as you have been deleted. So does everyone need to be deleted then, just because you were acting like a brad-pack, a bunch of juveniles who didn't understand the word 'no'?...

Hm, being deleted (including credits) is something different than project stats being not shown, right?

And the way how a "no" is spoken can vary a lot and can make a big difference. The first reply from DLB concerning the Wate issue was unneccessarily harsh and that "no" was making lots of people angry. Later on Wate's account was zeroed (but NOT deleted!) but still those users who made DLB aware of it are considered the "mob". Not really convincing if you ask me.

And being deleted weeks later, after not having done anything except changing the team, is not acceptable either. DLB wanted a proof before he zeroed Wate, but where's the proof I am a "malicious hacker" and deserve to be deleted?

Well, just my two cents. And I don't write spam mails, btw.

Greetings from Cori

larry1186: BAM!ID: 6734; Joined: 2006-09-21; Posts: 92; Credits: 1,209,598; World-rank: 194,985

2007-05-22 22:46:59

A reply to all wondering.
...[snip]...
Jord.

Well said Jord, and thank you.

ThEfT: BAM!ID: 355; Joined: 2006-05-14; Posts: 124; Credits: 3,050,080; World-rank: 117,097

2007-05-22 23:32:22

So perhaps asking inside the team why this bullying/harassment/trying to destroy the forums was done is a good place to start.[/i]

How could you ask people of your team as a founder, if it is deleted and you can't access their email addresses?

ThEfT
BOINC@Heidelberg -Admin
http://www.petitiononline.com/phletter/petition.html
http://www.boinc-team.de

Saenger: Tester - Translator; BAM!ID: 5; Joined: 2006-01-10; Posts: 1735; Credits: 231,679,312; World-rank: 6,764

2007-05-23 17:42:32
last modified: 2007-05-23 17:43:50

All bad moves in this escalating process were started by Mr. Braun.

As he was the main escalator in this process, the others only reacted to his actions, I agree sometimes a bit harsh, but not as harsh as Mr. Brauns actions.

Grüße vom Sänger

Saenger: Tester - Translator; BAM!ID: 5; Joined: 2006-01-10; Posts: 1735; Credits: 231,679,312; World-rank: 6,764

2007-05-24 06:30:19

BOINCStats being Neutral Ground where everyone can leave behind their opinion about things, within reason and without bad language, I'm 100% sure that a poll asking for Predictor to not be shown on the lists here will be dumped.

You've all left your opinion here as it hurts you personally, as you have been deleted. So does everyone need to be deleted then, just because you were acting like a brad-pack, a bunch of juveniles who didn't understand the word 'no'?

I did understand the word 'no', that's why I asked in another thread why he doesn't want to do anything abount the hacked computers, and doesn't even want to discuss the W***-account. He has given no explanation for it, and the "No, I don't intend to act against hackers" was something worth of questioning.

I know that he probably didn't want to discuss this either, as he obviously doesn't like be be held accountable for his actions/inactions, but that's no valid reason to shut up.

Grüße vom Sänger

ThEfT: BAM!ID: 355; Joined: 2006-05-14; Posts: 124; Credits: 3,050,080; World-rank: 117,097

2007-05-25 02:32:55

I just read the german google translation of the discussions at L'Alliance Francophone.
Seems they are strongly in touch with BS.

I'd like to have a central platform to talk about the next steps (I missed the poll at BS). Would be good if we could agree to such a place (I don't mind if it is here or at BS). This would prevent us from reading through everywhere

I'd also like to have a copy of that thing that should go there to make a poll on our team.

ThEfT
BOINC@Heidelberg -Admin
http://www.petitiononline.com/phletter/petition.html
http://www.boinc-team.de

AndyK: BAM!ID: 20538; Joined: 2007-03-06; Posts: 21; Credits: 92,600; World-rank: 709,449

2007-05-25 11:29:53

I just read the german google translation of the discussions at L'Alliance Francophone.

a) Could you give the link to it?

Seems they are strongly in touch with BS.

I'd like to have a central platform to talk about the next steps (I missed the poll at BS). Would be good if we could agree to such a place (I don't mind if it is here or at BS). This would prevent us from reading through everywhere

b) isn't BS = BoincStats?

Cori: BAM!ID: 2; Joined: 2006-01-09; Posts: 1351; Credits: 69,052,230; World-rank: 15,124

2007-05-25 13:00:41

a) German translation

b) I think he means BOINC Synergy with BS.
Too bad, same abbreviation for both...

Greetings from Cori

[BOINCstats] Willy: Forum moderator - Administrator - Developer - Tester - Translator; BAM!ID: 1; Joined: 2006-01-09; Posts: 9461; Credits: 353,172,950; World-rank: 5,062

2007-05-25 13:29:02

Easy solution:
BS: BOINCstats
BSy: BOINC Synergy

Please do not PM, IM or email me for support (they will go unread/ignored). Use the forum for support.

ThEfT: BAM!ID: 355; Joined: 2006-05-14; Posts: 124; Credits: 3,050,080; World-rank: 117,097

2007-05-25 23:45:52

Okay, I thought of BOINC-Synergy

ThEfT
BOINC@Heidelberg -Admin
http://www.petitiononline.com/phletter/petition.html
http://www.boinc-team.de

Guest

2007-06-13 00:44:48
last modified: 2007-06-13 00:45:35

Again my team was deleted with no explanation. Predictor is again trampling my right to assemble in peace. It is not surprising given the history of the project.

Nightbird: BAM!ID: 132; Joined: 2006-05-11; Posts: 85; Credits: 0; World-rank: 0

2007-06-13 19:20:55

Again my team was deleted with no explanation. Predictor is again trampling my right to assemble in peace. It is not surprising given the history of the project.

Did you create a new B4L ? If yes, not really surprizing since obviously this project has some problems with this team and will destroy it systematically.
If no, i would say that you have been "marked".

ThEfT: BAM!ID: 355; Joined: 2006-05-14; Posts: 124; Credits: 3,050,080; World-rank: 117,097

2007-06-13 19:59:28

As some of you may already know, lots of BOINC teams want to send an open letter to the administration of the Scripps Institute. As from what I've read in other forums (like the one from BOINCSynergy) there is no text for this finished yet. This is why we from BOINC@Heidelberg have created a suggestion of a formulation for this letter.

The sense behind should be the following: as many teams as possible all over the world should make a poll asking their team members if they would agree to send this letter in the name of the team. Whatever result is good for the team to send it (e.g. 50%, 66% or 75%) should be clarified at the beginning of the poll in each team. Every team that decides to support sending this letter will be listed in the top part of it (odered by predictor credits desc.). The part about sanctions from the teams is intentionally left very open, because this is also a decision of each team. Joining this letter with your team should tell that you are displeasured about what was happening.

The text is available in English and German at the moment. If you recognize any mistakes in it or if you are willing to translate it into other languages, please contact me here at BOINCstats (which seems like a good international cross-team platform for me).

If your team is willing to join, I'd suggest you post the following in here:

We want to join:
<Link to your team page at BOINCstats>
<Link to the poll you made for your team>

We may not request a poll, but we need to be sure, that you are allowed to speak for your team.

So now our suggested text for the open letter in English:

Dear Sir or Madam,

This is a message from the following Teams represented at Predictor@home:
- BOINC@Heidelberg (http://predictor.scripps.edu/team_display.php?teamid=194)
currently: 698,634.97 Predictor-Credits / 21,541,674.65 BOINC-Credits
http://www.boincstats.com/stats/boinc_team_graph.php?pr=bo&id=6418
- ...

After long discussions across various forums around the BOINC communities (in English: http://www.boincstats.com/forum/forum_thread.php?id=1898 – in German: http://www.boinc-team.de/portal/showtopic.php?threadid=1237 – as well as in French: http://forum.boinc.fr/boinc/Lesprojetsdistribues/PredictorHome/censure-predictor-home-sujet_389_1.htm) we want to make you aware of the following things.

One of your employees, David Lee Braun, Manager of Computational Facilities and Administrator of the forum at Predictor@home, has repeatedly violated principles that are considered as essentially democratic and ethical just by the BOINC community:

- Deleting posts and threads inside the forum that did neither outcast the netiquette nor violate current law, but asking critical questions about the way he did his job
- Banning participants from the forum, that were publicly complaining about the way how David Lee Braun handled the issue with the unauthorized distribution of BOINC software through trojan-like attacks to unsuspecting computers participating in Predictor@home
- Banning whole IP ranges from even accessing the Predictor server to prevent the expression of opinions
- Affronting whole groups of people in the forum (calling them a "mob&quot

- Deleting teams at Predictor that protested against these actions with their name ("Banned for Life&quot

- Libeling members of one of those teams by illegal imputation of criminal activities against Predictor (until now, there was no evidence presented or a person named)
- Arbitrary deletion of participant's accounts on the project. The reason that was given to those users - if there was any - referred to the critical questions posted in the forum and to the imputations mentioned above. Lot's of those participants consider the granted credits as some kind of reward for supporting the project.

We, from the teams mentioned above, are shocked, frustrated and worried about the listed issues in equal measure. Furthermore we do not only see a massive damage to the reputation of Predictor@home, but also to the Scripps Institute as a whole. Lots of our participants willingly gave their computing time, their power and hence their money to Predictor@home to support a reasonable scientific project.

However, the mentioned incidences have changed our minds to stop any further support of Predictor@home, to inform publicity in any possible way and to warn about what's happening at Predictor@home project. We are sad, that it had to go that far, but in none of the recognized cases we were able to see any cooperation or willingness for discussions from the side of David Lee Braun.

Despite all that, we are still willing to talk about everything and to receive proposals of how to dispose these problems.

Your formerly enthusiastic volunteers

And here the German version:

Sehr geehrte Damen und Herren,

dies ist eine Nachricht von den folgenden Teams bei Predictor@home:
- BOINC@Heidelberg (http://predictor.scripps.edu/team_display.php?teamid=194)
derzeit: 698,634.97 Predictor-Credits / 21,541,674.65 BOINC-Credits
http://www.boincstats.com/stats/boinc_team_graph.php?pr=bo&id=6418
- ...

Nach langen Diskussionen in diversen Internetforen (auf deutsch: http://www.boinc-team.de/portal/showtopic.php?threadid=1237 - auf englisch: http://www.boincstats.com/forum/forum_thread.php?id=1898 - sowie auf französisch: http://forum.boinc.fr/boinc/Lesprojetsdistribues/PredictorHome/censure-predictor-home-sujet_389_1.htm) möchten wir Sie auf die folgenden Vorgänge hinweisen.

Einer Ihrer Angestellten, David Lee Braun, Manager of Computational Facilities und Administrator des Forums von Predictor@home, hat wiederholt gegen Prinzipien verstoßen, die von der BOINC Gemeinschaft als essentiell demokratisch und ethisch gerecht betrachtet werden:

- Löschen von Beiträgen und Themen im Forum, die nicht gegen die Netikette oder rechtliche Belange verstoßen, aber seine Arbeit kritisch hinterfragt hatten.
- Bannen von Teilnehmern im Forum, die sich öffentlich über die Handhabe von David Lee Braun bezüglich der unerlaubten Verbreitung mittels Trojanern von BOINC beschwert hatten.
- Ausschluss kompletter IP-Ranges vom Zugriff auf die Predictor Webseite zur Verhinderung der Meinungsäußerung
- Beleidigung ganzer Teilnehmergruppen im Forum (Bezeichnung als "Mob&quot

- Löschen von Teams bei Predictor, die mit ihrem Namen ihren öffentlichen Protest gegen die Aktionen kund tun ("Banned for Life&quot

- Verleumdung von Mitgliedern eines dieser Teams durch rechtswidrige Unterstellung krimineller Aktivitäten gegen Predictor (bisher wurden keine Beweise vorgelegt oder auch nur Namen genannt)
- Willkürliche Löschung von Teilnehmern des Projekt. Als Grund wurden die kritischen Äußerungen über die Arbeit von David Lee Braun sowie oben genannte Unterstellungen gegeben. Diese Teilnehmer verloren all ihre Credits, die sie in teilweise jahrelanger freiwilliger Unterstützung von Predictor@home erworben hatten. Viele dieser Teilnehmer sehen die erteilten Credits als Gegenleistung für ihre Unterstützung an.

Wir, von den oben genannten Teams, sind schockiert, frustriert und gleichermaßen besorgt über die genannten Vorfälle. Auch sehen wir hier eine massive Schädigung des Rufs, nicht nur von Predictor@home, sondern des ganzen Scripps Instituts. Viele unserer Teilnehmer gaben Predictor@home gerne ihre Rechenzeit, ihren Strom und damit auch ihr Geld, da es doch ein wissenschaftlich sinnvolles Projekt ist.

Die genannten Vorfälle jedoch haben uns dazu bewogen jede weitere Unterstützung von Predictor@home einzustellen, die Öffentlichkeit, unseren Mitteln entsprechend, zu informieren und vor den Vorgängen beim Predictor@home Projekt zu warnen. Wir sind traurig darüber, dass es so weit kommen musste, jedoch war von David Lee Braun in keinem der angesprochenen Vorfälle ein Entgegenkommen oder eine Diskussionsbereitschaft erkennbar.

Trotz alledem sind wir immer noch gesprächsbereit und empfänglich für Vorschläge wie man diese Probleme wieder aus der Welt schaffen kann.

Ihre ehemaligen begeisterten Freiwilligen

ThEfT
BOINC@Heidelberg -Admin
http://www.petitiononline.com/phletter/petition.html
http://www.boinc-team.de

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