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[AF>HFR>RR] ThierryH
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2015-05-06 14:31:16

Hello,

I'm ThierryH from L’alliance francophone team. I'm the creator, administrator and developper of Keep4eveR. I'm interrested that Keep4eveR appear in BoincStats stats. As Keep4eveR couldn't be developped on BOINC for some reasons explain in project FAQ, you can't put it in BAM.

Keep4eveR's "Storage space / BOINC" application uses free space on your hard drive to store backup data from users of Keep4eveR's "Backup" application.
It isn't running under BOINC, but is under BOINC's spirit.
Main URL project : http://www.keep4ever.net

Keep4eveR's stats are published at same place and under same form than a regular BOINC project.

Regards,
ThierryH
Keep4eveR, the backup between individuals.
[AF>Le_Pommier] Jerome_C2005
 
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2015-05-06 21:09:31

Just for information, K4R "boinc like" stats are already integrated into StatsBZH and StatSeb.

Even though K4R cannot be a pure boinc project for technical reasons, well explained in the project FAQ (available in English on the website), there is definitively a boinc spirit behind : free participation (to share space), free usage (for your own secured data backup), cooperative and resource sharing project.

I think boinc users should have a look at it, even if you don't consider the potential boinc credits !
[BOINCstats] Willy
 
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2015-05-10 08:38:45
last modified: 2015-05-12 09:29:51

The project will be visible tomorrow. Let's see how the discussion unfolds.

Some questions, remarks:

  • Since there is no scheduler to check for online/offline status, which url/page do you suggest I check?
  • There is no status page (like http://burp.renderfarming.net/server_status.php?xml=1) so the project can't be included on the project status page
  • The host export file doesn't contain a single host.
  • No RSS feed so no project news on BS.
  • Not compatible with BAM!.
  • For the moment the stats will show on this website but will not be included in the combined stats until the BOINC community decides this is a true BOINC project.



And this one I'm really wondering about: How do you make sure my computer is not used to store illegal data like terrorist plans, child porn, bomb schematics etc? Even though the data is encrypted, storing these types of data on a PC in The Netherlands (and probably a whole lot of other countries) is illegal and punishable by high fines or jail time. Since I volunteer to store this data I am responsible for its contents.

Please do not PM, IM or email me for support (they will go unread/ignored). Use the forum for support.
[AF>HFR>RR] ThierryH
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2015-05-10 10:38:48

Willy, thanks to added Keep4eveR in your stats.

To check online status you could use Boinc Home page http://www.keep4ever.net/US/boinc.awp
I'll see if it's possible to add a true project status page.
As host aren't useed as BOINC with CPU/GPU projects, if I make an export it'll be on disk size/use but not on CPU power. It's why I don't export hosts stats.
RSS isn't plan for the moment but could exist in the furure.
Is there a way to have community agreement or is it just based on Keep4eveR number of users ?

Regards,
ThierryH
Guest

2015-05-10 11:15:57

[BOINCstats Willy wrote:


And this one I'm really wondering about: How do you make sure my computer is not used to store illegal data like terrorist plans, child porn, bomb schematics etc? Even though the data is encrypted, storing these types of data on a PC in The Netherlands (and probably a whole lot of other countries) is illegal and punishable by high fines or jail time. Since I volunteer to store this data I am responsible for its contents.


they can take all your computer hardware and may never get it back
put you in jail for a time while the investigation is going on, you many not be formally charged with a crime, but your life will become hell....
bankrupt you trying to defend yourself for years,
and bar you from using any computer/tech.
I will not run this sudo project.
sorry, the risk is too great!



Guest

2015-05-10 12:07:58

There is something else to consider. Technically, this is not a BOINC project, since No BOINC Software is used. By allowing it in BOINCStats we are creating a precedence and we should allow ALL other Distributed Computer Projects that do not use BOINC Software, such as Folding@Home, MOPAC@Home, Wieferich@Home just to name a few. If that is the case, this site need to change its title for it will no longer be just BOINCStats. We already have DC-Stats that promulgate both BOINC and Non BOINC projects, Keep4ever should apply to be included there.
[AF>HFR>RR] ThierryH
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2015-05-10 12:13:46

Is your Internet provider responsible of data going thru its network ?
It's the same think for data of Keep4eveR.
French law is agree with that.
A new law currently under vote agaisnt terrorism plan to request from data hosting to give access to data, but not to punish hosting.
Do you really trust that there isn't this kind of data on Google drive, Dropbox, Microsoft OneDrive, and others ? Are they prosecuted for this ?
No !

Now, I agree with you. If you don't want to have 0.00001 % of this kind of data on your computer, don't give storage space to Keep4eveR. However, you can use it to save your own data.

ThierryH
[AF>HFR>RR] ThierryH
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2015-05-10 12:16:56

ShaNe [BlackOpsTeam wrote:

There is something else to consider. Technically, this is not a BOINC project, since No BOINC Software is used. By allowing it in BOINCStats we are creating a precedence and we should allow ALL other Distributed Computer Projects that do not use BOINC Software, such as Folding@Home, MOPAC@Home, Wieferich@Home just to name a few. If that is the case, this site need to change its title for it will no longer be just BOINCStats. We already have DC-Stats that promulgate both BOINC and Non BOINC projects, Keep4ever should apply to be included there.


WCG wasn't on BOINC at begining. Was it on BOINCStats ?
Guest

2015-05-10 12:27:53

[AF>HFR>RR ThierryH wrote:

Is your Internet provider responsible of data going thru its network ?
It's the same think for data of Keep4eveR.
French law is agree with that.
A new law currently under vote agaisnt terrorism plan to request from data hosting to give access to data, but not to punish hosting.
Do you really trust that there isn't this kind of data on Google drive, Dropbox, Microsoft OneDrive, and others ? Are they prosecuted for this ?
No !

Now, I agree with you. If you don't want to have 0.00001 % of this kind of data on your computer, don't give storage space to Keep4eveR. However, you can use it to save your own data.

ThierryH


I don't live in France

you don't have teams of highly paid lawyers versed in international law like they do

Guest

2015-05-10 12:30:23

[AF>HFR>RR ThierryH wrote:

ShaNe [BlackOpsTeam wrote:

There is something else to consider. Technically, this is not a BOINC project, since No BOINC Software is used. By allowing it in BOINCStats we are creating a precedence and we should allow ALL other Distributed Computer Projects that do not use BOINC Software, such as Folding@Home, MOPAC@Home, Wieferich@Home just to name a few. If that is the case, this site need to change its title for it will no longer be just BOINCStats. We already have DC-Stats that promulgate both BOINC and Non BOINC projects, Keep4ever should apply to be included there.


WCG wasn't on BOINC at begining. Was it on BOINCStats ?




WCG version of boinc is by the same DEV as BOINC, Dr. A, Rom, etc.....



[AF>HFR>RR] ThierryH
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2015-05-10 12:33:32

Sure, but Keep4eveR is under French law as you can read it in FAQ (from backup part, i'll add that also on BOINC part).
Guest

2015-05-10 12:49:59

[AF>HFR>RR ThierryH wrote:

Sure, but Keep4eveR is under French law as you can read it in FAQ (from backup part, i'll add that also on BOINC part).



I don't see your end-user license agreement (EULA)

or a link to it.
Is there EULA?


[AF>HFR>RR] ThierryH
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2015-05-10 13:22:06

I published something when Keep4eveR was a commercial project. Here an extract regarding your questions. It's in French because because Keep4eveRis the property of ThierryH Solutions SARL, a French company under French law.

Article 3 DEFINITION DU SERVICE
Le service proposé correspond à la mise en relation de deux ou plusieurs clients. Le client émetteur sauvegarde sur les ordinateurs des clients receveurs ses données personnelles afin d’en assurer la conservation, et met à la disposition des autres clients un espace de stockage de leurs propres données personnelles qu’ils cherchent eux-mêmes à sauvegarder.

Article 4 CONFIDENTIALITE
Pour assurer la confidentialité des données, celles-ci sont cryptées automatiquement chez le client émetteur avant d’être transmises cryptées et stockées cryptées sur les disques durs des clients receveurs.

Article 7 RESPONSABILITE
Les données qui sont transmises par le client émetteur sont des données qui lui sont personnelles et le service ainsi que les clients receveurs ne pourront être tenus responsables, ni civilement, ni pénalement, du caractère frauduleux ou illicites de celles-ci. Le client émetteur ne peut utiliser le service pour stocker, transférer ou distribuer des fichiers de tiers ou pour le compte de ceux-ci. De même il ne peut, ni revendre tout ou partie du service, ni intégrer toute partie du logiciel dans ses propres programmes, ni compiler toute partie du logiciel en combinaison avec ses propres programmes.</p>

Article 9 DROITS D’AUTEUR
La SARL THIERRYH SOLUTIONS est titulaire des droits d’auteur sur le logiciel KEEP4EVER, ainsi que sur la documentation et le site. Le contrat souscrit n’entraîne aucun transfert de propriété intellectuelle au bénéfice du client. En conséquence, celui-ci s’interdit tout agissement ou tout acte pouvant porter atteinte directement ou indirectement aux droits d’auteur sur le logiciel qui est principalement protégé par le code de la propriété industrielle.

Article 10 CONTENTIEUX
En cas de litige, et après une tentative de recherche d’une solution amiable, la compétence expresse est attribuée au Tribunal de Commerce de Beauvais, nonobstant pluralité de défendeurs ou appel en garantie, même pour les procédures d’urgence ou les procédures conservatoires, en référé ou sur requête.
[AF>Le_Pommier] Jerome_C2005
 
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2015-05-10 14:56:52

Quick google translate.

Article 3 DEFINITION OF SERVICE
The proposed service is the linking of two or more clients. The client backup transmitter to receiver client computers personal data to ensure conservation, and provides other customer storage space of their own personal data they seek to save themselves.

Article 4 CONFIDENTIALITY
To ensure the confidentiality of data, they are automatically encrypted at the client transmitter before being sent encrypted and stored encrypted on the hard drives of recipients customers.

Article 7 RESPONSIBILITY
The data transmitted by the sending client are data that are personal and service customers and recipients can be held responsible nor civil nor criminal, fraudulent or illegal nature of these. The customer issuer can use the service to store, transfer or distribute third-party file or on behalf of them. Similarly, it can not and resell all or part of the service, or integrate any portion of the software in its own programs or compile any part of the software in combination with its own programs.

Article 9 COPYRIGHT
SARL ThierryH SOLUTIONS is copyright holder on the KEEP4EVER software, as well as documentation and website. The contract signed does not entail any transfer of intellectual property to the customer's benefit. Consequently, it prohibits any act or any act that directly or indirectly infringe the copyright in the software which is mainly protected by the Code of Industrial Property.

Article 10 DISPUTES
In case of dispute, and after an attempt at finding an amicable solution, the jurisdiction is assigned to the Commercial Court of Beauvais, despite multiple defendants or warranty, even for emergency procedures or protective procedures, Referee or on request.


If you look (for example) at Google terms of service, they say

Using our Services does not give you ownership of any intellectual property rights in our Services or the content you access. You may not use content from our Services unless you obtain permission from its owner or are otherwise permitted by law. These terms do not grant you the right to use any branding or logos used in our Services. Don’t remove, obscure, or alter any legal notices displayed in or along with our Services.

Our Services display some content that is not Google’s. This content is the sole responsibility of the entity that makes it available. We may review content to determine whether it is illegal or violates our policies, and we may remove or refuse to display content that we reasonably believe violates our policies or the law. But that does not necessarily mean that we review content, so please don’t assume that we do.


but in the case of K4R user that shares space of his machine(s) cannot decipher the data that is stored by other users in his machine(s) (unlike google), and don't have any access to the encrypting key, that only the user that does the backup has (its machine / K4R software on its machine).

I use a service called Spider Oak where the company can't even decipher the user own data stored on their service ("zero knowledge encryption&quot, see their terms of service, also here.


Maybe K4R should also have its own terms of service, in English too ?
[AF>HFR>RR] ThierryH
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2015-05-10 15:29:54
last modified: 2015-05-10 15:31:18

Be very careful, this is a Google translation. Only original in French can be use in front of jutice.
Tuna Ertemalp
 
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2015-05-11 18:10:10
last modified: 2015-05-11 18:38:16

I am sorry but, I fail to see how this is a scientific project. How is this any different than any other Torrent implementation where files are distributed across zillion machines? Are we now in the phase where anything that works on multiple machines for any purpose can export some XML files and thus be counted as a BOINC(like) project? As you can tell, I am not all warm and fuzzy about it. Sure, stuff like this should happen, but to consider is as part of the BOINC universe? My gut feel says: Nah.

Tuna


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2015-05-11 19:15:45

Tuna Ertemalp wrote:

I am sorry but, I fail to see how this is a scientific project. How is this any different than any other Torrent implementation where files are distributed across zillion machines? Are we now in the phase where anything that works on multiple machines for any purpose can export some XML files and thus be counted as a BOINC(like) project? As you can tell, I am not all warm and fuzzy about it. Sure, stuff like this should happen, but to consider is as part of the BOINC universe? My gut feel says: Nah.

Tuna


EXACTLY! Well said.
DoctorNow
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2015-05-12 05:14:47
last modified: 2015-05-12 06:07:01

Tuna Ertemalp wrote:

I am sorry but, I fail to see how this is a scientific project.
...
but to consider is as part of the BOINC universe? My gut feel says: Nah.

Same goes for me.
I have to admit that I find it weird and stupid to give out BOINC credits for storing someone else's data on my hard drives, especially when the app isn't even BOINC natured. I don't like the concept of the project also so I did not make an account for myself or our team, even though I'm considering myself an ATA and try almost everything out what comes up to the BOINC world.
But this is a No Go for me, I don't even have enough spare hard drive (and band width) for myself most of the time so I should give it out for others? Forget it...

Btw: On what base are you giving out credits, ThierryH? I didn't find an explanation anywhere on your site, maybe I missed it.
Edit: found it by clicking around, not easy to find. The whole site needs a better navigation from my POV.

ThierryH wrote:
It isn't running under BOINC, but is under BOINC's spirit.

That is somehow illogical in this case. Especially when your Keep4ever-app only does encrypting and decrypting, the rest is only moving files around. The app is not for any research as far as it's explained, so it doesn't include "BOINCs spirit" as you say.
Thus said, I am also against an including of stats here and agree to Shane's words:
If that is the case, this site need to change its title for it will no longer be just BOINCStats. We already have DC-Stats that promulgate both BOINC and Non BOINC projects, Keep4ever should apply to be included there.
BOINC@Heidelberg & BOINC Confederation-member

My BOINCstats/[url=http://signature.statseb.fr/sig-335.png]My badges
[AF>HFR>RR] ThierryH
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2015-05-12 10:15:28

You are several to think that BOINC shoud be reserved to scientific projects. It's your choice to not participate and I respect it. But now, if someone is interrested by a no scientific project, it's his choice to participate. Keep4eveR isn't the only one no scientific project.

Keep4eveR don't use BOINC because it's currently not possible, but perhaps it could in the future.
Here's an extract of Keep4eveR :

Why Keep4eveR doesn't use official BOINC client ?

BOINC distributes data randomly. Now, it seems quite logical that a participant that uses Keep4eveR backup its own data, is not the one who stores them. Similarly, to ensure that two copies of a same file aren't stored on same site, Keep4eveR distributes a single copy of a file to one participant, regardless of number of computers it makes available. Finally, for each saved file, Keep4eveR put a copy in a storage space with high confidence factor, and another in a storage space capable of returning in a few hours. For all these reasons, the use of Berkeley official client is therefore impossible for now.

For credits, I tryed to do something logical regarding SETI credits. Stocking 50 GB on Keep4eveR give same than a mean power CPU core on SETI and it's also depending of uptime. For bandwidth usage, 1 GB of data give same than a mean power GPU on SETI during one day. Remember that bandwidth usage is very low when storage space is full.
Keep4eveR, the backup between individuals.
Dr Who Fan
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2015-05-12 16:22:26

IF IT DOES NOT USE THE BOINC SOFTWARE,
THE "CREDITS" IT OUTPUTS
DOES NOT BELONG ON THE BOINC BOARDS.


Tuna Ertemalp
 
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2015-05-12 17:19:07
last modified: 2015-05-12 17:25:54

First, go to http://stats.free-dc.org/stats.php?page=index&sort=last. That will show you stats from all sorts of distributed computing projects that are both based on BOINC and not. For example, Wieferich@Home is such a projects. It is not part of BOINC, even though it is a scientific project. There are many other such projects in the world that do Distributed Computing on volunteer machines without using the BOINC infrastructure. It just so happens that people using BOINCstats are people who made a decision to use BOINC Manager/Client on their machines to give their idle computing time to projects that work under the BOINC framework. There really is no need for any stand-alone non-BOINC project to try to give out BOINC credits and benefit from the machines "donated" to BOINC.

Second, if what is being requested here were true, then imagine this: I get tired of having all this free time in my hands because I am retired, buy a bunch of soil humidity sensors, thermometers & barometers, bunch of regular and infrared cameras, and bunch of irrigation triggers, write a piece of deep learning software to take the input from all these cameras & sensors & triggers I place into my garden pointing at my flowers, add to it the water pricing plan from the local water company based on the time of the day, to determine which flowers will look bad based on some image processing coming from the cameras, what part of my garden is about to go dry in X hours based on soil detectors and air temperature gauges and possible input from weather report websites, and schedule a minimal "just in time" watering schedule that changes hourly per irrigation head based on the best water pricing from the water company. Then, let's say, I decide to run all this in a distributed way on the GPUs of a thousand machines on the BOINC network, since deep learning software runs best on such multi-thousand-core GPUs, in return of BOINC credits given for every penny it saves me on water usage. Would that be a fair use of the BOINC spirit? I don't think so.

Third, imagine Keep4eveR was a good way of using BOINC resources, and that it even used the proper BOINC infrastructure, making most of the arguments against it in this thread moot. Well, you all must be remembering the Fappening and Snappening events of the recent times. What would happen if I were to create a folder on my machine with all the Fappening and Snappening pictures, and use Keep4eveR to distribute it across millions of machines, and use BOINC to do that? Can you imagine the big black mark that would put on BOINC's forehead as a whole, and how it would look like in public opinion? Just think about the sensational headlines on FOX News ( "Government supported science platform used to distribute pedophilia" or "Scientists looking for little green space aliens found naked teenagers instead" ), especially in the current political anti-science climate suffered in USA.

So, over all, this really is not a good idea, even though it must have started with the best of intentions.

Tuna

[AF>Le_Pommier] Jerome_C2005
 
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2015-05-12 21:52:54

Thanks for the detailed discussions, we have to talk about all this on our side.
[AF>HFR>RR] ThierryH
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2015-05-13 08:28:18

Please, read carefuly Keep4eveR's principle and make your own opinion.

Tuna, I have nothing against you, but you're Microsoft team funder, and Microsost have interest that Keep4eveR can't live.
[AF>Le_Pommier] Jerome_C2005
 
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2015-05-13 08:35:47

One very important thing : K4R is NOT a P2P file sharing system, at all. File will never be distributed on "millions of computers". K4R is a personal file backup service, and the users that share their disk space cannot access "split and encrypted pieces of the original files that are hosted on their machines", here are samples of the FAQ that can be accessed on the site :

How works Keep4eveR ?

Keep4eveR is based on the principle of community members who wish to secure the digital memories of their lives in mutually trusting their encrypted backups. Once your account created and application installed, you just have to put a copy or the original, in one of the monitored folders by Keep4eveR.
That's it.
Keep4eveR handles encryption and send your data on our servers. These will place a copy of your data on computer of two other members. At any time, you can request your data restoration. Then they follow the reverse path. After restoration, a decrypted copy will be placed in its original folder on your computer.

What is storage space


You have now understood, the main duty of a Keep4eveR's member is to provide a storage space to place backups of other members. As there are 3 copies of all your files, you must provide a mathematically storage space of size equal to three times what you backup to the system to be viable.

What is Keep4eveR's architecture ?

Everything is based on a servers system located in data center. A database stores information about each file: name, original location, location of each copy as well as information for verifying its integrity. Before leaving his original computer, a file is divided into blocks of 64 KB. Each block is encrypted and is accompanied by an integrity check code (MD5). Then, they are sent to a server which checks integrity to validate reception. The integrity code of each block is stored in database. The blocks are stored in a cache waiting to be sent to storage space. When there are two copies in storage spaces and if system needs to make release space in his cache, all blocks of the same file are deleted from cache.
When copying in a storage space, all blocks of the same file are sent to same storage space. Of course, there's an integrity control on arrival which is compared to the code stored in database. Thereafter, the system periodically polls storage space by calculate integrity of a given block and compares it with code stored in database. If different, the system immediately took a series of measures starting by generate new copies of files in the failed storage space using famous additional 5% of storage space resquested to each member.
When restoring, each block of a same file is re-cached on server with integrity check as required. Then transmitted to the restoration computer with an integrity check and decryption on arrival. It's then recorded on disc, referring to original path.

How security is provided ?

We designed Keep4eveR security to meet several criteria:

  • Guarantee that a third party can't read your data.
  • Ensure that a restored file is identical to original.
  • Early identifie loss of one copy to take appropriate actions.


Here is series of measures implemented to achieve this:


  • Each original file is read in blocks of 64 kb that are immediately encrypted using an algorithm RC5 (128 bits, 16 rounds) that provides a high level of invulnerability. The key is different for each member and its size can vary from one member to another.
  • Dialogue between members' computers and Keep4eveR is also encrypted. For each member, a new key is generated approximately every three minutes. In fact, when block travel over the Internet, it is doubly encrypted.
  • Dialogue between member browser and web server is secured with SSL (https:// and posted padlock). SSL certificate was issued by a trusted third party recognized by almost all browsers. In fact, dialogue has the same level of protection as that used when paying by credit card on a bank site.
  • Each time a member logs in to website, IP address is recorded and stored until the next request from the client application. If it's first application connection after installation, or has lost track of key changes, IP address is used to identifie it.
  • Before being sent over the Internet, a signature of 128 bits is assigned to each block already encrypted, obtained by a MD5 hash algorithm. After each transmition on Internet and whatever place of arrival (original, cache, storage space), a hash is made and compared with the original signature. If different, block is retransmitted.
  • Central database records each block signature. Randomly, there's a comparaison between recorded signature and block hash in storage space. If different, a series of measures are taken to verify storage space integrity. At worst, it's declared lost and each file it contains received a single copy status to generate a new one.
  • Rarely, it may happen that the two copies of same file are simultaneously reported lost. In this case, Keep4eveR checks if the original is still in original folder. If so, a new copy to server cache is made. If not, an email is sent to owner, so he could put it again in a backup folder.



Giving "boinc like credits" is a good idea to thank users willing to share their disk space for free, since the solution is free and you won't get money if you share disk space.

Using the backup service for yourself is free too, and you are not obliged to share some disk space (and get "boinc like credits&quot to use it.
Tuna Ertemalp
 
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2015-05-13 15:28:10
last modified: 2015-05-13 15:32:50

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